As former Chadian president Hiss\u00e8ne Habr\u00e9\u2019s war crimes trial continues before the Extraordinary African Chambers in Senegal, JusticeInfo.Net recently spoke to Senegalese human rights defender and Amnesty International regional director Alioune Tine about this historic event. Today we hear from Professor Gregory Steven Gordon, an International Law expert who teaches at the Chinese University of Hong-Kong and has previously worked for the Office of the Prosecutor at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR).<\/p>\n
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JusticeInfo.Net: What is the significance of the on-going Habr\u00e9 trial?<\/strong><\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n Gregory Gordon<\/strong>: This trial is extremely important both for the international community and for Africa in particular. \u00a0From a global perspective, this is an important milestone in international criminal law history. It is to my knowledge the first time a regional intergovernmental organization (the African Union) has entered into an agreement with a domestic jurisdiction (Senegal) to create an ad hoc court to try international crimes \u2013 the Extraordinary African Chambers in the courts of Senegal.\u00a0 And it is all the more significant given that the defendant is a former head of State.\u00a0 That this is taking place in Africa is equally amazing.\u00a0 From an African perspective, this could be seen as representing Africa's first major step in taking ownership of regional international crimes prosecutions.\u00a0 Thus, it could be a harbinger of greater domestic efforts to deal with large-scale human rights violations in a region disproportionately beset with such violations.\u00a0 Given the limited resources of the International Criminal Court, as well as criticisms that the ICC is too focused on Africa (a kind of neo-imperialist critique), a more regional approach could be a very positive development.\u00a0 And it could eventually lead to creation of a permanent regional criminal court and\/or the institution of pure universal jurisdiction prosecutions in other parts of Africa. \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n JusticeInfo.Net: Some critics say it is victor\u2019s justice, since current Chadian President Idriss Deby is not in the dock. What is your view on that?<\/strong><\/p>\n \u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n GG<\/strong>: Since the epochal Nuremberg proceeding after World War II, international criminal justice has been often critiqued for being mere \"victor's justice\u201d.\u00a0\u00a0 It is true that Realpolitik always factors in, to varying degrees, in terms of the defendants who are actually prosecuted for international crimes.\u00a0 \u00a0But that does not mean that such prosecutions should not be undertaken. \u00a0In a perfect world, all defendants culpable for international crimes would be brought to book.\u00a0 But such an outcome is simply not realistic.\u00a0 In the meantime, given considerations of resources and politics, certain ground-breaking trials have taken place and established important precedents that will help develop international criminal law.\u00a0 I believe the Habr\u00e9 case may end up being one of those.\u00a0 In my opinion, in trying Habr\u00e9, the African court represents all of humanity, not just Africa.\u00a0 That said, given the atrocity crimes that have victimized millions of Africans over the centuries, including the more recent ones committed by Habr\u00e9 in Chad during his reign of terror, there is something especially gratifying about the fact that an African court will sit in judgment of him.\u00a0 It is not so much a question of victors and vanquished as it is of justice and memory.\u00a0 \u00a0<\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n JusticeInfo.Net: Do you think this special tribunal is really independent?<\/strong><\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n GG<\/strong>: The Extraordinary African Chambers (EAC) were given a specific mandate -- to prosecute \"the person or persons most responsible\" for international crimes committed in Chad during Habr\u00e9's rule.\u00a0\u00a0 The chief prosecutor did seek to indict five other members of Habr\u00e9's government implicated in relevant crimes.\u00a0\u00a0 But, for various reasons, including Chad not being willing to extradite to Senegal in certain cases, as well as the location of certain suspects being unknown, only Habr\u00e9 will be in the dock.\u00a0 I do not think that is owing to a lack of \"independence\" of the EAC.\u00a0 Rather, we can chalk it up to the usual transnational enforcement constraints placed on institutions that would prosecute atrocity crimes committed in other jurisdictions. \u00a0That is a problem the global community needs to work on.\u00a0 In the meantime, we must do the best we can with the resources and roadblocks that exist.<\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n JusticeInfo.Net: African dictators are generally not pursued by the law until after they leave office, in other words, once the harm has been done. What will it take for that to change? Do you think an African court with a criminal justice mandate could be a solution? And how independent would it be?<\/strong><\/p>\n \u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n GG<\/strong>: The sense of license that African leaders feel in committing atrocity crimes stems in large part from a culture of impunity that still pervades on the continent.\u00a0 And it is not limited to Africa \u2013 that culture of impunity still reigns worldwide.\u00a0 I do believe, however, that there is deterrent value in international criminal prosecutions.\u00a0 The fruits of such a deterrent effect may not be reaped right away.\u00a0 But we must start somewhere.\u00a0 The post-Cold War efforts to prosecute gross human rights violators is a work in progress.\u00a0 Many want results immediately but that is asking too much.\u00a0 And merely because results are not achieved immediately does not mean we should abandon the enterprise.\u00a0 But if this noble endeavour is to achieve two of its foundational goals \u2013 bringing about justice and deterrence \u2013 it must have regional and domestic justice efforts added to the mix.\u00a0 The world cannot rely on the International Criminal Court to achieve all this by itself.\u00a0 So, along with universal jurisdiction prosecutions and traditional hybrid courts, a permanent tribunal created by the African Union, to prosecute international crimes committed in Africa, could be a welcome development.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n \u00a0JusticeInfo.Net: So, is the ICC, as some people say, the least horrible solution?<\/strong><\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n GG<\/strong>: I do not think it's a question of the least horrible solution.\u00a0 I do think the ICC is a crucial component of an entire holistic solution.\u00a0 It must always be remembered that the ICC is essential as a \"safety net,\" if you will, to ensure that justice efforts are undertaken on the domestic level.\u00a0 The domestic level should be the focus but it is not always possible due to resource or political considerations.\u00a0 So we need the ICC.\u00a0 But if domestic efforts continue not to be feasible in enough situations, then we may need to think of alternatives.\u00a0 A regional criminal court, working with an organization such as the African Union, could be a novel way of dealing with this problem.\u00a0 Either way, it is significant that the EAC has finally seen the light of day in this case.\u00a0 If justice is done with respect to Hiss\u00e8ne Habr\u00e9, there will be much more hope for future regional success in Africa's ongoing struggle to end the culture of impunity.<\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" As former Chadian president Hiss\u00e8ne Habr\u00e9\u2019s war crimes trial continues before the Extraordinary African Chambers in Senegal, JusticeInfo.Net recently spoke to Senegalese human rights defender and Amnesty International regional director Alioune Tine about this historic event. Today we hear from Professor Gregory Steven Gordon, an International Law expert who teaches at the Chinese University of […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":59,"featured_media":65544,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[565],"tags":[],"ji_location":[2167],"class_list":["post-2129","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mixed-tribunals","ji_location-chad"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\n